In this episode of "Synergy Loves Company," host Eric is joined by returning guest, Author, Jamie Hecker to explore the intersection of Disney and U.S. presidencies. They discuss the importance of civic duty and voting, highlighting both presidential and local elections. The conversation delves into the historical connections between Disney and American presidents, from Walt Disney's admiration for Abraham Lincoln to Harry Truman's avoidance of the Dumbo ride at Disneyland. Jamie shares insights from his book, "Walt Goes to Washington, Finding Disney in DC," and discusses Disney's unbuilt "Disney America" park near Washington, D.C. The episode covers topics like the American Adventure attraction, animatronics in the Hall of Presidents, and the cultural impact of Disney in post-World War II America.
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00:04 --> 00:53 Synergy loves company. We have this coterie of rich franchises. The company now that people want to engage with. I came here to try and continue what Walt Disney and his associates set in motion 50 years ago, which is to experiment with every new and innovative kind of entertainment possible. It's what we hope to do here to really develop something that just, more than an entertainment enterprise, it's something that contributes in many other ways.
00:58 --> 02:04 Hey, this is Synergy Love's company, where we explore how Disney connects to everything. I'm Eric, and it's that time again in America. Every four years, we cast our votes to choose a new president. So as we prepare for election day and the 47th president of the United States, I of course, need to look at the whole situation with a Disney lens. I just can't help myself. It's a very special election episode of Synergy Loves Company. The president of the United States and Disney. You might not realize it, but there's a lot of history between the role of the president and the Walt Disney Company. Too much for me to handle on my own. So keeping me company today is friend of the show and returning guest, author, Jamie Hecker. Jamie knows a little something about Disney's connections to the presidency because he wrote a book that explores those connections and so much more, called Walt goes to Washington, finding Disney in DC. So, Jamie, welcome back to the show.
02:04 --> 02:15 Thank you. Thank you for having me back again. My first visit, I guess I got the approval checklist. So happy back here to talk some more.
02:16 --> 02:19 We should say your first visit was legendary.
02:20 --> 02:22 That would be very appropriate.
02:22 --> 03:12 Talked about Disney legends. But yes, of course, we're back to talk about the president of the United States and Disney. So I wanted to get your opinions, your stories, your information from your research that you've done on this topic with your book about DC. So let's get right into it and let's get to the president's talking about your book. In your book, you explained how each president of the United States since Franklin Roosevelt has a Disney connection. So that's from my count, my math. I'm not the best at math. That's 14 presidents so far. And I mean, I guess we could have more going into the future, but can you share some of your favorite Disney stories of the presidents? Presidents Disney stories?
03:13 --> 11:29 First off, let me, I will do a cross reference name drop. You had as a prior guest, Bethany Bemis, who is a Smithsonian curator. She recently had an exhibit on Disney, how it reflects american culture and american culture reflects back on Disney. So she wrote this wonderful tome and she. Well, that's kind of fuzzy there. Disney theme parks in America's national narratives. And one of the things she mentions is that there really is this strong association of citizens of all levels and classes and whatnot that have a connection to a Disney theme park or the Disney brand or the films, whatever. Disney in the broad sense. So when you think about politicians and presidents tapping into that, it really makes sense. You think of a politician who's walking around with an apple pie and driving his pickup truck. What's more american than going down to Disneyland or whatever? So each politician, each president that I've written about that you alluded to has had some significant interactions with the Disney theme parks, or very modest, or in some cases, none at all. You talked about, FDR was the first. It's hard to put a timeline on it because Disneyland did not open until 1955. But Walt Disney and the company, Walt Disney Productions, was around since 1923. So, yes, FDR, you alluded to that. And Truman, I do know that Truman visited Disneyland after he was out of office, and he would not ride dumbo because that represented the. That was the icon of the republican party. And he says, nope, can't do it. I just won't be photographed riding in a dumbo. So, you know, it's the happiest place on earth. You're supposed to let these things slide by. But, nope, he stopped. Yeah, it looks like. So he. He was in office until January 20, 1961, and then he visited. He and his wife visited on two occasions in the early sixties. Now, President Kennedy, here's where you got to get out the asterisk. He visited Disneyland in 1959. However, at that time, he was a senator from the commonwealth of Massachusetts, and he was there visit with a foreign dignitary, the president of guinea. The other sort of unique tie that President Kennedy has to Disney. This was unintentional, but when Walt and his select team of Disney employees, they were seeking out land for what would be Project X, Epcot, Disneyland east. That day of Kennedy's assassination is when they flew over Bay Lake, and the plane had a stuff for refueling in New Orleans that got news of the assassination. You imagine just the air being deflated out of the room. And I think Walt says, well, I think our search is over. That's our place, that being central Florida. So, unfortunately, there's a. There's a tie into President Kennedy. With that. We get to President Nixon. Now, he has arguably the longest tenure of time with Disney because he was vice president for eight years under Eisenhower, and then six ish years as president on his own. As vice president, he was there for the 1959 updates to Disneyland, the Matterhorn, the Alweg, Disney Alweg rail, monorail system, autopia, and the submarine voyage. The story, it's like a fishtail. Every time it gets told, it gets a little bit bigger. Bob Gurr, bless his heart, is still with us. But he was Mister mechanics at Disneyland. Yes, he says if anything moved, he was part of its design. So the monorail vice president Nixon is there with his wife and family, ready for the ribbon cutting. And there, there's downtime. There's unscheduled downtime, and it's hot out that day. And Walt says, let's step inside the monorail. It's monorail red, by the way. We'll turn the air condition, Bob, go fire up. Let's get the AC going. Bob says, well, okay, Walt is my boss. And then they're inside cooling. And I don't know, Bob could probably tell you this better than I could, but at some point, when they realize they're nowhere near the dedication ceremony, Bob. Walt says to Bob, let's take it for a spin. So Walt's with the vice president on board and his secret service entourage. Not on board, Bob, okay. Closes the doors, puts the card on around to drive, and, you know, he can see in the rearview mirror the secret Service agents running out. Mind you, it's just on a loop. It's not going anywhere. It's just going to come back to the same platform. And I believe it went down around two or three times. Bob Gurr has told that story. I've seen him at a D 23 event. I've seen him do live videos. Hearing him tell it is a really spectacular story. President, Vice President Nixon has been to Disney many times. As president, he also returns. And if you ask somebody who's 40 and younger, say, Richard Nixon, what comes to mind first? Like a Rorschach test. And chances are you're going to get the I am not a crook speech and four words, no context. Well, that speech took place at the conference center at the contemporary resort at Walt Disney World. Richard Nixon was running for reelection. He was at the AP Associated Press conference. He put himself on the front stand for open questions and answers without preparation. He wanted to come clean with the reporters vis a vis the electorate. And one of the questions he was asked was about, well, you were out of office, out of public service for x number of years, and you wrote a book, and you have profits from this book. What are you, what's you know, what's the ethical bounds you're going to adhere to? And he went on about how he was going to have somebody else take care of that, and he goes, well, that's where I. He kind of felt like, okay, they're ganging up in me. They're calling me, uh, unethical, whatever. That's where he ended with his infamous I am not a crook and a tie to Disney. There you go. Most people, um, may not realize that now after, uh, he resigned from the Watergate scandal. We have a unique situation in american history. A president, Gerald Ford, who has taken the oath of office, but has never been elected by the us populace. Yeah, Gerald Ford is now president. He's in the White House for all of two years. He was not reelected. But during that time, Walt Disney World is growing. They have added river country. This was the precursor, the first water park before Typhoon Lagoon. And help me for the other one.
11:29 --> 11:31 Lizard Beach, Blizzard beach.
11:31 --> 13:09 Thank you. Now, river country was unique. It was on the shores of Bay Lake, which is a natural body of water. And they had ingenious at the time, some rubber bladder out there that would keep the filtered water from the park on one side and the lake water on the other side. And of course, you've got. It was mimicking the old country river hole, sort of like out of Huck Finn. And they had rope slides. You would swing across some old seventies era tubes, water slide tubes. First daughter, Susan Ford, they went to Disney as in the summer of bicentennial summer of 76. That's when river country opened. And Susan Ford was 18. She was the right demographic. Disney says, let's take this and go with it. And she had, as any teenager would, a spectacular summer. Of course, when you're at Disney, you can't not have a spectacular time. So she got to experience that. Now, river country is in yesterland, for lack of a better term, physically. Still there. It's off limits. Every now and then you'll see some clandestine photos of. It's just nature's overtaking it, of course. But that is a fascinating story. Now, our next president, Jimmy Carter. Unbelievable. Just turned 100 years old.
13:09 --> 13:12 Oh, yeah. Congratulations to him, for sure.
13:12 --> 14:36 Yeah. He served one term, 1977 to 1981. He actually had a speech in the park. He was, let me find it. It was the international chamber of Commerce, 26th World Congress. It was held after hours at the Magic kingdom. And the schedule for the day was October 1, 1978. And the neat thing about when I did the research is that you have access to the presidential libraries. Anything that's digitized is gold. So you get to see the schedule hour by hour, minute by minute. Jimmy Carter and his wife Rosalind attended this, and I include this in the book because I'm particular about the Disney way of spelling and punctuating. It's Cinderella Castle, as we all should know, except when they call it Cinderella's royal table. Go figure. Anyway, so the presidential travel itinerary says, the entourage, we're going to Cinderella's castle. And I cringe when I wrote that, but I had to leave another book with quotes to indicate that I'm not the one making that common error.
14:36 --> 14:37 Right.
14:38 --> 16:17 The other fascinating thing is that after he left office, Jimmy Carter did go back. This is in Disneyland. And Jimmy Carter is, well, probably not so much anymore, but in his time, he was a fitness enthusiast. And on a trip after the president serves their office, they still get Secret Service protection. So he is in 1982, visiting Disneyland and wants to do a morning run through the park before it's populated. And so there's this rare photo of Jimmy Carter with at least four agents running tandem with him. And so everyone kind of jokes that this is the first run Disney event right there. So then we get to President Reagan, and like Nixon, there's a lot of Venn diagram circles with connections to Walt Disney and the Walt Disney Company. Walt was in Hollywood. He's an icon making filmmaker, filmmakers. Ronald Reagan at the time was an actor, president of the Screen Actors Guild. They both testified in 1947 to the House committee, House Un American Affairs Committee, about communism in Hollywood. They were called as friendly witnesses. I forgot to mention this. I'll dovetail back in. One of the panelists, one of the congressmen here at those hearings was a young congressman from Southern California, Richard Nixon. There. So there we go. We're connected.
16:17 --> 16:18 Yeah.
16:18 --> 20:37 So that's how they met. So geographically, politically, and career wise, they all kind of intersected. Walt and Ronald Reagan. Walt and Richard Nixon. So I think that's why those two presidents really have the biggest imprints. The other very, very unique thing is, I'll let my readers read it. So by one of the amendments, inauguration day is January 20 following the November election. So this January 20, 2025, we will have another inauguration. And DC kind of pulls out all the stops. There's obviously the public ceremony on the steps, on the eastern, western steps of the Capitol. There are parades. High school marching bands apply to be in this. They do fundraisers. The January of 85. So that would be his second inauguration. Inauguration of a second term. It was a bitter, bitter cold January. And all the outdoor activities, including the parades, had to be scrubbed just for the safe and health, safety and health of everyone. But, you know, they did the public swearing and on the Capitol steps, and then all the remaining events were indoors. You know, there's multiple presidential balls. Those were all indoors. So all of these bands and kind of got the short shrift, unfortunately. So Disney, the company, reaches out to the administration and says, well, we have this shiny new park called Epcot. It's only three years old. What if we had, like, a makeup inauguration? And so of all the band, 50 bands have been scheduled. All of them. Most. All of them were able to take up the offer to go to Epcot, and they just did the loop around showcase lagoon, and the president was there to make remarks to the crowd. I have a lot of the details of that in my book. I won't prattle on and on, but it was. It's really neat that, you know, again, the mindset of co locating in our minds the Disney brand and the american presidency. Well, here's a beautiful tie in. You know, it didn't have to be done. Reagan didn't have to accept it. Disney didn't have to extend the offer. It was a win win for all parties. Oh, for sure. The band members. So then we get to George Hw Bush. The fascinating story is that, you know, he had spent most of his life as a career civil servant. He was director of the CIA for a while. He had spent eight years as vice president when he decided to run his wife, Barbara Bush, very kind of one step ahead of him. Okay, we got to make sure x happens, y doesn't happen. So when he is at Disneyland. 1988. Yeah, they went to Disneyland over the Labor Day weekend, and there's going to be photo opportunities. Barbara Bush went out of her way to ensure that her husband was not side by side with Mickey Mouse. Now, her reasoning, and I follow it, is that this is the days before viral memes can take off, like a photo or a quote out of context can go viral, and you spend five days unpacking. What was a 32nd misunderstanding? Well, in certain quarters of the american public, Mickey Mouse is used as a derogatory term. It's like, ah, that's a Mickey Mouse operation they're running over. She, in her mind, says, I don't want my husband to be pictured with him. For someone to caption it, this is a Mickey Mouse candidate, you know, so. And she managed to arrange it that every time there was a photo, she was there to intervene and not let that opportunity get in the way.
20:37 --> 20:38 Interesting. Yeah.
20:38 --> 23:01 Yeah. So we go forward to Bill Clinton served two terms, 1993 to 22, really, January. He did not have a lot of time in the parks, per se, but he was one of the first presidents to sit for, as we're going to talk about a little bit hall of presidents, we have every elected president there. And they, and imagineering has done a phenomenal job over the years with technology. They have a limited time with the president. And they're also going to get a recording of him, a 45 2nd speech, a minute, minute and a half. And they have to find a quiet room in the White House that has good acoustics, that is inaccessible or can be accessible. They have to work with all these security parameters and found this ingenious article, the Walt Disney imagineering internal publication. And they talked about how they went about it. But he, Bill Clinton was preparing to do his speech, what had been written out for him, and he starts singing, I think, from Pinocchio or when you wish upon a star. It's a fascinating story from the imaginary perspective. How about that one opportunity to meet with the president? And then, of course, they have to do facial modeling. I think now with the past two, with Trump and Biden, I think they've been able to just do like facial scans, like a laser scan. It'll map it instantly. So now we get to W. George W. Bush, two terms, elected in 2000, served through 2008. He actually is one of the few presidents has not visited a Disney park, but he has attended fundraisers and he's done a number of things at the White House. He did a private screening of Disney under, I think it was their Touchstone brand, released a movie called the Rookie. A pitcher who's past his prime tries out and finds out he's still got some heat. Dennis Quaid, is that it?
23:01 --> 23:02 Yeah.
23:02 --> 24:44 Thank you. Okay. Well, they had a private screening at the White House, and Dennis Quaid and all, all members of the film staff and production were invited for this private screening. W is a big baseball fan, has a stake at the time in the Texas Rangers, right? Yes. Yes. Thank you. So that's his, that's what he enjoys. And he did have some fundraisers at the contemporary resort. And then we get to Barack Obama, two terms. And like Carter, he had a public facing appearance inside the Magic kingdom. One of the beautiful things about our presidents, they have humans. You know, we have self deprecating humors. We find flaws in ourselves. We can gently poke ourselves. He makes fun of himself. He's good with that. He joked about how you know? Well, Dumbo isn't the. The only one with big ears around here today. So, uh, you know, it's kind of nice to have a little humility and a little fun when you're at Disney. Like I said, park, how can you not have fun? And that gets us to. Now, when I wrote this book in 2021, I covered Donald Trump's first term. He had some fundraisers lined up at the grand Floridian. But I think there was some. It was canceled, wasn't specifically stated why or relocated. And then I have in the book, Joe Biden 2020 question mark, as. That's when I wrote this book.
24:44 --> 24:45 Right.
24:45 --> 25:22 And the only connection he has as vice president under Obama, he was visiting the Disney parks, and there's a photo of him again with the Secret Service entrance, walking down the main avenue of tomorrowland. And I hunted. I'd seen it. I bookmarked it. Then I lost the bookmark. And so I kind of waited. Well, maybe something will happen. I can write an update to the book, and nothing has happened that I'm aware of. So those are the presidents in the park's lifetime.
25:22 --> 25:23 Yes.
25:23 --> 29:08 But we would be remiss if we didn't talk about Abraham Lincoln, because we have. This is Walt's favorite president, and Walt was inspired by him. You can see the Midwest humility, the fabled stories of reading books by candlelight in his log cabin, and the stovepipe hat. So Walt, as a elementary school student, went to dressed up one day as Abraham Lincoln, and with a homemade stovepipe hat out of a rolled cardboard. And he was prayed, the president, the principal, was so impressed. He prayed, a young Walt around all the other kids. So you look at Walt and his inspiration, and this was where he's pushing technological boundaries of animatronics. Jungle cruise starts with these crude but effective pneumatic tubes of hippopotamuses coming out of the water and lowering. And then we get the tiki bird rooms, we get a little bit more electronics and solenoids involved. And then for Ge carousel of progress, we have waffle Rogers in his mocap suit, so to speak. And for the state of Illinois and Robert Moses at the unofficial New York 1964 New York World's Fair. Unofficial in the sense that it wasn't sanctioned by the international governing bodies of world's fairs. Robert Moses says, I'll do it anyway. So for the state of Illinois, wed enterprises, which is today's imagineering, is commissioned to come up with a lifelike version of President Lincoln. And this is Walt's idea box kicking into high gear. Well, we've done animatronics on small scales. Can we do it on a human scale? And so this is an amazing collaborative effort between his famous sculptor, Blaine Gibson, who does. Who gets a life mask or death mask of President Lincoln, to recreate a mold of his face. They have to find the right type of material. You know, rubber, not quite right, latex, something that's going to torque. And then the mechanics behind the face, you know, the eyes move, the lips move. A lot of time. Trouble getting this to work. Bob Gur was talking about this. It worked fine in Glendale, back at WDI headquarters. And they get out to flushing meadows in New York, and it works one day, it doesn't work the next. And it. I think Bob kind of alluded to it was a. The power source was not reliable. It wasn't, you know, almost like at home, you have a power strip surge protector. So they just didn't have a clean, consistent supply of energy. Once they got that wrinkled out. Abe performed like a champ. So he would get up, stand up, give his speech, sit down, and this was kind of mind blowing for 1964. So this is Walt paying homage to his hero, and in turn, kind of opened the door for the hall of presidents, because Walt was not there for all of the ideas of what became into Disney world, but I think he didn't want to repeat everything. So that's why you got New Orleans Square and Disneyland. You have, uh, Liberty Square in Walt Disney World. Uh, and the hall of presidents is a big factor that's unique to that park. That's. That's really my summary, although wasn't much of a summary of. Of the Disney connections to the multiple presidents of the 20th and 21st century, and Abraham Lincoln, the 19th century.
29:08 --> 29:58 Uh, I mean, he's. He's important to the. The history, for sure. And that's. That kind of leads me to my next question, which is a weird one. And we kind of discussed it before, like, really just kind of emailing back and forth and whatnot, before even getting to record. And I had come up with this question after, you know, thinking about all these presidents that have a connection, and I asked you, what american president. Which american president do you think is the most? Disneyland? Um, and, yeah, it's a weird question, but, um, it's kind of like a vibe. Right? Like what? There. There's a lot in a lot of the stories, you said, there's a lot that could be said for many of them to qualify them as being very Disney. But I'm just interested in what you think? Yeah.
29:58 --> 30:12 Yeah. I had to. I had to think about this. And once I came up with my answer, I surprised myself. But I have some sound reasoning behind it, and it might catch you and your audience off guard as well. But first, a little setup.
30:12 --> 30:13 Sure.
30:13 --> 34:39 From 1953 to 1966 is when the Walt Disney company was just firing on all cylinders. They had made a successful pivot into live action films, into television, this nascent media that the film studios didn't want to touch because it was going to cannibalize them. Walt embraced it. He wants to build a theme park. His wife says they're disgusting and trashy and goes, that's mine's not going to be. So he wants to build it and talks to his brother about financing it, and we don't have the money. It's a publicly traded company. They just can't do that. They have the fiduciary responsibility. So, Walt, I'll make my own private company. I'll call it wedding. I'll bring some of the best and brightest from the studio over. And we're going to design a theme park. And I think this outside of the box thinking for this decade or so is really what accelerated the growth of the Disney brand and the Disney development into the american mindset. All of these things, and this is mid century. There's a lot going on in the post World War two. There is a very uplifting period for most Americans, wealth and affluence. They reference it in the carousel of progress. We're having a rumpus room. We're doing something that we're called the rat race, our commuting to work. And I look back at 1955, when Disneyland opened, and they had tomorrowland. Well, Tomorrowland is always this nebulous item to pinpoint. So they had rocket ship to the moon. Well, NASA hadn't been created yet that was conceptually viable. One of the other things that they have, Bob Gurr, is there for day one of Disneyland, is this autopia track. And all these cars are going, and all the carburetors are stallings. That's a hot day. And they haven't been really fleet tested yet. And. And I've always wondered, why would you have this kiddie ride in just simple cars in Tomorrowland? It doesn't make sense. And then you sort of, like, zoom out a little bit, and you realize, well, the first half of the american 20th century, cars were the exception and not the rule. Long distance travel was rare. Walt almost always traveled by passenger rail. It wasn't until 1957 that we had the federal Highway act that established the plans and the funding for this international highway system. And I realized that the highway system really was the future of America. Walt was speaking around the corner, and, yes, he had the monorail done a few years later, but day to day, his vision for Epcot was going to have a city where it have lower ground, below ground transit for trucks and deliveries and above ground for vehicles. Well, who put into place the federal highway system? President Eisenhower. And I think that when you look at President Eisenhower, who spent his whole career in the military, came home as a military hero for really vanquishing a common enemy. The war was not on our homeland, but it was in Europe they took the brunt of it. He comes home a hero, and he's a natural choice for a presidential candidate, and he's warm to it. He was a straight shooter. He was very popular with the american public. Walt identified with him of his midwest humbleness, his can do spirit, and the fact that Walt is an innovator. And pivoter. And pivoter. General Eisenhower did one of the hugest career pivots from a five star general to the president of the United States. So that is my roundabout way of answering your question. Which president is most Disney? And I'm going to say Dwight Eisenhower.
34:39 --> 34:54 I like that. I was not expecting that either, but I really like it. It kind of goes into that, like, that optimism, future looking, innovation kind of thing. That is so walt.
34:54 --> 35:30 Yeah. And I think, like I said, from the conception of Disneyland, the construction of it, all the way up to his death in 1966, so many things positively were happening for the company. And I realize that President Eisenhower, his terms overlap part of this period, but he was in that mix. So I think opening up the federal highway system really changed fundamentally the dynamics of american lifestyles. But that is my long winded answer to your question.
35:30 --> 36:24 It was good. No, I really. I really appreciate that, because I was kind of. I honestly, from what I did, and I've already learned so much about the presidents of Disney from. From our conversation today. But, like, from what I knew, it was a lot of, like, Nixon, Reagan and Lincoln, like, are the ones that, like, came to mind for me. But I kind of like your. Your answer. I like your answer a lot. I did want to take some time and talk a little bit about Washington, DC and Disney, because your book is not just about the presidents and Disney. That's a portion of it. You also have a lot of great information about Washington, DC and kind of Disney. I call them Disney spaces, but maybe Disney events and places that resonate with Disney across DC, the city.
36:24 --> 38:57 Thank you. So here's the COVID of my book for your viewers. Let me put it right there so it's in focus. And this was my Covid project. During lockdown. I was not at work, and I had some health issues. I've been ruminating on this idea for so long, it's time to. To put it to paper. So I used, from a narrative structure, I used the National Mall as a reference point to everything. Because on the west, you've got Lincoln Memorial center is the Washington monument. On the right is the US Capitol. Behind that, Supreme Court Library of Congress. The House and Senate are there as well. Um, so some of the stuff I wrote in the book and some of the items I shared probably aren't really accessible in a post 911 and January 6 world. But I will. I will share with you that there are three House office buildings on the south side of the Capitol, uh, three Senate buildings on the north side, and whenever a vote is called. I worked on Capitol Hill for six years, so this is all baked into my head. Congressmen and women have 15 minutes to get to the floor for the vote, whatever reason. So all the clocks have a series of light up lights, and the closer it gets to the final one, which is red, that's like the vote ending. So they're in. Every congressional office has one. They're in the hallways. I think they're even in the elevators. But in the interest of expediency, under one. Under the closest House office building, there's a tunnel that goes from the House office building to the US Capitol. And it uses a small tramdhead, which uses maglev technology. So it's like a miniature version of the TTA. Now, I got to use this because I had my. My staff badge with me whenever I would take. Whenever some constituents would show up. I was the youngest member of the staff. So, like, go give them a quick 15 minutes tour of the Capitol. Sometimes we would take the tram and.
38:57 --> 38:57 Awesome.
38:57 --> 47:52 This is cool. I don't. I'm going to guess that that's not a thing anymore. I will direct. If other visitors want to go, look, talk to your congressman or woman beforehand, say, hey, we'll be in DC. Can you get us tickets for a capital tour or a White House tour? They're hard to come by officially, but you can at least ask them if you can go to the cannon House office building and asked to see the main caucus room, because this is the room in 1947 and where Walt testified before Congress. It's a grand, ornate room, two stories tall. You look at the photos of him and he's on a desk with three microphones in his face. CB's, NBC, whatever the news. And he's addressing. He's talking to congressmen and women that we don't see. The video that you can find in the public domain is just focused on him addressing them. But the transcript of that entire speech that he gave in the canon House office building is in my book. It's also available. Yeah. Other facets. There's some stories about the FBI. It's right there. You know, the main FBI building is in downtown DC. J. Edgar Hoover, who was sort of like the FBI director for life up until his death. Since then, they've had reforms that directors can only serve so long. A bit of a paranoid individual, had files on lots of people. Muhammad Ali. John Lennon had a file on Walt Disney. And in particular, Disney live action released a comedy. Live action film. Comedy. The film title is so forgettable that I can't even remember it, but it features federal agents as bumbling idiots. And Hoover was miffed. You're portraying my men in poor taste. I can't. I can't tolerate this. And same thing, I think, with that darn cat. They had federal agents. They had it. They weren't called FBI, but it was clear that that's where they were supposed to be. And all these notes, which, through Freedom of Information act, the FBI has released the Disney file. You can see handwritten notes and maybe Hoover, maybe someone else is like, what's he thinking? Or, why was this happening? So it's fascinating. And, yeah, that lot more information. There's way too much for me to share. But I've got a chapter on the CIA. I'll keep this brief. When the lessons learned from Disneyland was to buy property on the DL, you don't want your buyers to know who the buyer is. You don't want the landowners to know who's buying up the property. You go through a middle agent, and the middle agent is such that they don't know neither end. And so to help arrange this, a former OSS officer, office of secret service, which was the predecessor of the CIA, his tradecraft was working overseas, setting up shell companies. So he's an attorney by trade, retired from the agency. But he says, well, I can help you out here buying all this land. We had a phone system set up in New York. We had calling card business cards to say. So anytime somebody really got curious, a call would get routed to New York. If this number rang, they would answer it. So and so law office. Okay, well, that's ruse number one. So he established. Paul Halliwell is the lawyer slash CIA officer. He set up shell companies, the ones that we think are jokes for real companies. Bretlaw Industries, the I four corporation. These are bona fide entities that were sub registrated to one of the higher tiered ones, all registered in Delaware, which is very corporation friendly. And so that is how they did a bulk of the land purchases, under false pretense. You know, CIA habits, tradecraft, help. Help that work out. And it wasn't until Emily Brevard of the Orlando Sentinel, she's like everyone in central Florida. They're trying to figure out, who is this mystery buyer? Well, she gets invited out to Disneyland for its 10th anniversary, last minute addition to the private corporate jet. So she's there. She happens to meet Walt. Bear in mind that her entourage, the leader of all these east coast of reporters, has no idea about Project X. Only Cardwalker, Walt, Roy, and I think buzz Price are the four that know about this. And so she starts pressing Walt, like, don't. Do you think Florida would be a good place for a future Disneyland? He's like, well, no, because there's not enough highways, and the climate isn't quite right for this reason. And so he backtalked himself into revealing it because he knew too much. And he was trying to say, well, I don't know for a fact that the tropical number of days is this. And so she kind of sniffed it out and put two and two together. And the speculation the next day in the Orlando Sentinel is, we believe. We say it's Disney. And, of course, they had to reveal, yeah, it's us at that point. Yeah, that's. That's one of those I love. You know, I love a corporation that's 100 years old plus, you know, has these fascinating stories. You know, today, everything we deal with is on a laptop, on a smart device on the cloud. In Walt's era, it was all memos and typewriters, and their technology was innovating ways to do the animation process. So I just look back as a historian, I'm rambling on to make my point is just that they used the tools that they had at the time, and could they get away with that similar lamp versus, say, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But that is a tie into the CIA. I think I'll let readers sort of find their own stories, because the Department of Commerce is what was part of the organizing body that did the El Grupo entourage trip to South America. That's the story unto itself. Ted Thompson, son of animator Frank Thompson, he Didier Gaze, and JB Kaufman have published a beautiful new book on El Grupo. And JB Kaufman has done other work. But I'm looking through here. There's more than I have time for. But, you know, some Supreme Court cases came about. One thing I learned in 2021 when I researched this book, is that after she was widowed, Lillian Disney remarried. I didn't know that. And the reason is that she used the Walt Disney estate to sell stocks of the company to fund CalArts, which was part of Walt's wish. And there was an issue relevant to the prop, to the long term tax implications. Was it a private sale, a charity sale, charitable, an organization? And essentially, the underpaid taxes, the government, the IR's, says, no us more. It went to the Supreme Court. So on the docket, there is Lilliande Disney, and I can't remember what her new last name was. And this I didn't know. So I, again, my, I tell myself anytime I find a new, interesting Disney fact, I want to share it. So.
47:52 --> 47:54 Oh, yeah, yeah.
47:54 --> 48:07 And yeah, there's, there's a lot. I don't want to spill everything, but of course, you can find it on Amazon. I'll tell you, I'll talk about my links, but I think you had some other topics on the agenda here that.
48:07 --> 48:48 I do for sure. So what I wanted, and no, I definitely wanted to let you talk about the book, because everyone go out and give it a read, because there's so many more stories to go around. But in kind of the spirit of the election coming up, and all of us, of course, gonna go out and do our civic duty and vote. We usually have some presidential debates. We've had some over the past few months and weeks. So I thought that we could have a little bit of a Disney presidential debate. Not that we're running for anything, thank goodness, but who knows how much of a debate it will be? We might end up agreeing on some things.
48:48 --> 48:49 Okay.
48:49 --> 49:12 But I kind of have some this or that, some big Disney issues mostly having to do with presidents, some not so much. But I'm just kind of toss one up, and we'll see where we're at here. So I'll let you go first on this first one. And it's kind of a, a contentious one. Walt Disney World or Disneyland, which one you want?
49:12 --> 49:18 That's, that's, that's tough. That's like I'm gonna alienate half your audience with whatever I say.
49:19 --> 49:20 Right.
49:20 --> 50:28 It's like saying, which of your two kids do you like the most? You know, for sure. I'm gonna draw on personal experience and I'll say Walt Disney World. Because having lived in Indiana and the east coast, it's easier for me to get Florida than it is to California. And it's a bigger park. Four parks it has been. You know, I've heard other, other fans and historians say that Disneyland is intimate in scale. It feels like a warm hug. Disney World is. Is a vibrant symphony of fireworks. Metaphorically. Um, so there's no wrong answer there. You know, I remember in funny, I went to the d 23 convention, d 23 expo in 20, 2013. And I remember I'm standing on one spot in the park, and on my right shoulder is the Matterhorn. Straight ahead is small world. On my left is the, um, the, uh, the not keel boots. It's the, uh, monster of the whale.
50:28 --> 50:31 Yeah. The storybook land. Yeah.
50:31 --> 50:47 I'm thinking I can just pivot my head 180 degrees. And all these classics are right in my line of sight that, you know, that's a prop to Disneyland. How they can, how they can pull it off. So still in my heart, I'm a Disney world guy.
50:48 --> 51:44 I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it. Not much of a debate here. I get what you're saying because we. So we recently, we just went to Disneyland for the first time as a family in the spring. And both my wife and I kind of as taking it all in, leaving Disneyland, thinking about it, we were kind of like, Disneyland itself is like that. Like you said, the warm hug. I think it's our favorite park individually because, like you said, like those greatest hits. But if we're going to plan a full vacation from being in the midwest, it is a lot easier to get to Florida. And there's much to do, much more to do there over the course of a longer stay. Where in Disneyland. With California adventure, we were able to kind of get through everything we wanted to in a smaller amount of time. So I like Disneyland the park best, but Disney World is the. Is the overall choice.
51:44 --> 51:47 Great answer. Very diplomatic answer.
51:48 --> 52:42 Right, right. As we're talking parks, this next one is about a park that actually never got built. And you being from the DC area, I kind of want to hear your thoughts on this. Disney almost built a theme park outside of DC called Disney's America. And there was a big, contentious debate about the park and should it be built really near to battlefields and real history, as people said at the time? Would it be kind of tainting that real history to have a Disney park there. And ultimately, Michael Eisner's plan was shut down and Disney's America never got built. So do you think if Disney's America were built and it had gone through, would it have been a success or a disaster for the Walt Disney company?
52:42 --> 57:06 Me, it's a very good question. I have a whole chapter on this park that never was. And I think Disney is success story with parks is climate where you can have it operating year round. That was drawback number one to this. It was also announced just on the heels of the Clean Air act. And so DC as a region was not at the levels that we should be. So suddenly we're talking about extra congestion, more cars on the road. And then again, some of the local civilians and national historians say, well, you've got these battlefields, historic battlefields nearby. It's in Haymarket, Virginia, about 20 or so miles west of Washington, DC. Why are you going to Disneyfy? In their sort of a condescending tone, Disney's american indian history when real history is here. The park had a lot of. It was all concepts, but what. We got a few things out of it. We got Soarina, because victory Field was one of the noted lands and there was. I love this concept. There was going to be a roller coaster patterned after around a steel mill concept. And while you're going through molten lava and almost like you're in a big steel mill, would it have been a success? My answer is that probably for the first couple of years, yes. And I think after that, without a repeatability factor and with the diminishing, you know, you know, that's why Disney World and Disneyland are always getting plussed. New attractions coming in, old stuff going out. I think telling the tale of american history in a theme park is a tall order because some of our history is grand and majestic. Some of it is we have warts and we don't want to, you know, we have to acknowledge that we've had a troubled past. How do you acknowledge that? Embrace it, educate and still entertain. So I think the park would have been an initial hit, but I think my best parallel comparison is that Disney had. They used to have one in downtown Disney, Disneyquest. And they built one in Chicago, they did Philly, and then just. They ran out of steam. They stopped building them, they tore down. I think Disney America would have been on a similar plane. Just that it would be interesting for a one time visit and then, eh, okay. And, you know, honestly, you Disney. I'm sorry, DC winters are very hit or miss, and you're not going to want to go schlepping down an outdoor venue when it's 30 or 20 degrees outside. I know, Disneyland, Paris, they have to do that. And Tokyo, I think, has some. Yeah, some outweighs to element. But I think in certain regards, I'm glad it didn't happen. And ironically, all the reasons that all the locals cited have come true. We're going to get increased congestion. Well, that happened because instead of a park, you just got, the suburban growth just expanded and took over interstate 66. They keep widening it. It keeps filling up. Anyway, the park didn't come to be. It wasn't going to be, as you alluded to. Eisner realized it was not going to be a commercial success. So I think it was wise to pull the plug. They'd taken their bruises in the public eye. So they just said, we're going to table it. And translation, it's canceled for good, right?
57:07 --> 57:19 No. So I kind of agree with you, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to say, what about all of those 8th grade tour trips to the class trips to DC? No, that's true.
57:19 --> 57:34 And actually, all the fourth grade students go to Williamsburg, so there's real living history, colonial era. But yeah, you're right. DC. I was in 8th grade, I did a DC class trip.
57:34 --> 57:35 I did the same.
57:35 --> 57:52 And actually, during the discussion of Disney's America, part of the plan was to relocate the hall of presidents to Disney's America. So it would no longer be in Liberty Square, it would be in Florida or Virginia.
57:52 --> 58:14 So that is the, that's also the perfect. The perfect segue into my next debate topic here, because I want to pit the hall of presidents against the original great moments with Mister Lincoln and ask you, which one do you prefer? Hall of presidents, great moments with Mister Lincoln. They both have strengths.
58:14 --> 58:14 They do.
58:14 --> 58:16 Which one comes out on top for you?
58:16 --> 59:58 Okay, full disclosure, I have not been in the hall of presidents in over a decade. I have been in great moments with Mister Lincoln in 2019. I think that was a trip my wife and I did to the west coast. So that is, in my mind, that stands out more now. You know the original narration. I know that the hall of presidents gets retooled. The lighting, the narration, the score. I like what I do remember of it, and I've read about it, is that it's a very, it's not stiff, for lack of a better word, while President A is speaking, you'll see two others in the background, kind of fidgeting or nodding in agreement. So I like the way that Disney has created, like, this organic moment on stage. You know, like, if every president could be alive in one room at the same time, what would it look like? Well, probably like this. They're all wearing period specific wardrobes. You know, person from party x says something and a colleague agrees and others disagree. So, yeah, I just have not been in it. Not for lack of interest. It usually boils down to time in the park. Like, okay, FastPass is coming up. We got to go. We got a dinner reservation. So I'm going to go. Because of its originality, and it really launched the AA movement. I'm going to go with great moments with Mister Lincoln.
59:59 --> 01:00:37 And that's like you said, you haven't been to the hall of presidents in a while, and maybe that, you know, great moments with Mister Lincoln's shining through. I'm going to go with. With the hall of presidents, and I'm going to hit you with. From what I understand, Walt's original vision was actually to make a hall of presidents. And then when the opportunity came to use the one single Lincoln he was working on, Moses ran with it. So it's the fully realized. So that's for the sake of debate. I'm going to take the hall of presidents.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:39 Perfect. Good answer.
01:00:39 --> 01:01:02 All right. I want to stick with hall of presidents here for a second because there's another. There's another american history attraction that has presidents featured in it in the parks today, kind of really close by, just over in Epcot, down the street from the Magic kingdom. And that would be our next matchup. Hall of presidents versus the american adventure.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:04 Okay.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:06 I have strong feelings about this one.
01:01:06 --> 01:03:14 I love the american adventure. This is what Disney should present to America. We don't need to see a glossy, rose colored view, because it does touch upon slavery and the civil war and the Great Depression and the struggles of civil rights. With Martin King's clip and some of our greatest triumphs, it's Neil Armstrong on the moon, I think, using the characters of Ben Franklin and Mark Twain as the co narrators. Wow. These are individuals who are timeless with their wit and wisdom and, you know, 17th and 18th centuries, but they. Their words and still resonate, even though those were scripted, they were in their words. Watching Thomas Jefferson compose time after time, all the pieces of paper that have revisions. Of course, on a computer, you don't have to write a piece of paper and toss it to the side. That's the sidebar. But I think between telling the story of America, the entire building. The American Adventure show building, not just the american adventure attraction is really tremendous. All the photos on the wall. Herb Ryman has an amazing painting, you know, the story of immigration, immigrants coming to America. It's this beautiful collage of all these ethnicities and cultures I wrote in my book. Well, at that time, when I wrote the book, there was a Disney sponsored exhibit at the american adventure. Well, it was a temporary exhibit. It's long gone. It still exists in print in my book. But between hall of presidents and the american adventure, I'm taking american adventure.
01:03:15 --> 01:04:52 I can't even take the other side on that. It's the american adventure for me, too. No, we love, it's a. I always feel like anyone, there's a lot of reasons to go into that building. Like, even those, those rotating exhibits. I know the last time to bring it back to presidents, the last time I was there, we were at Walt Disney World in the summer, and they actually, the exhibit, the rotating exhibit was George W. Bush's paintings because he's been doing a lot of art. So it was kind of cool. We could see that. And while we were waiting for the show to start. And it's. The show is, like you said, it's. It's a marvel. It's amazing. So much history done in a, in a, in a. It still has that, like, legendary, like, status of, like, we're telling the story in, in the, in the walled way of. Of making it a good story, but it doesn't necessarily shy away from, from kind of the warts and all. And as an added bonus, like this, this summer when we went, uh, we brought my, we were on a big family trip, and my, my young nephew, uh, came with and he, of course, because he's, he's a toddler, uh, got a good nap and was still sleeping when we walked out. And so it was like the grownups enjoyed a nice show and the kids, uh, got to, you know, take a little wind down. But it was like, then we had a second wind after the, the awesome show, and it was, you know, so there's many, many reasons to let. But, no, I always love, I always love a stop in american adventure. So I gotta. I totally agree with you. I can't even debate that one. Yeah.
01:04:52 --> 01:05:14 Good run. The same page. Yeah, it's, it's. And just the mechanics of how they get that show. I know they're backstage tours. I think it's, one of them is you get to see how they call it the Iron Horse, how they can move the show scene elements around and up. And it's a fantastic piece of engineering.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:49 It's amazing. Yeah. All right, we've got one last debate topic. Back in the seventies. Yep. So back in the seventies, Disney did, Walt Disney World did a promotion where in election years, they would have pooh for president, and they would have Winnie the Pooh is running for president. And they wanted to get all of the kids who visited Walt Disney World to vote for Pooh for president. So my question is, would pooh make a good president? And if not, what Disney character would you rather see as the president?
01:05:49 --> 01:05:55 Well, the first quality I look for in a president is that they wear pants.
01:05:57 --> 01:05:58 Yes.
01:06:00 --> 01:06:54 All kidding aside, I guess that would also, uh, Donald Duck would fall under that same rubric. Uh, would he make a great president? Yeah, he would. But he's also easily distracted. Um, if, if a, uh, somebody, you know, a foreign emissary or a bad actor wanted to get his attention, just wave a pot of honey in the air and he's distracted. Uh, but I think he wears his heart on his sleeve. He looks out for the little guy with Piglet and Rue. He's universally loved in a humble manner. And so as long as he surrounded himself by similarly minded and smart experts, he would be a good present.
01:06:56 --> 01:07:01 And he does have his hundred acre wood friends who could be his cabinet kind of built in, right?
01:07:01 --> 01:07:12 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, like I say, my only worry, though, is that he'll get distracted by honey. And that could be, that's his Achilles heel.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:14 And that could be very dangerous.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:29 It could be, yeah. But I do remember, I don't remember in real time in 76, but I do remember in recent years, all the, all the reflections of the playful campaign, pooh for president.
01:07:31 --> 01:08:12 I mean, I like your answer, but for the sake of debate, I'll go in on debate. I feel like. So, I mean, one answer we could go with is, like, Mickey is a good everyman kind of character. He's kind of grown into that because he was a little spunky at the beginning and then kind of mellowed out. So, like, that he would be a good one. He's, he's, I mean, he's that stand in for Walt. So, you know, you know, he's got those kind of Walt leadership qualities, we could say. Um, but I'm going to go, I'm going to switch it up a little bit, and I'm going to say, if we go for someone similar to, like what you said for, for Eisenhower, someone who led an army, I'm going to go ahead and put Mulan for my candidacy. I feel like she could lead really.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:20 Well, that's a great, great answer now. Okay. But. But is she a citizen?
01:08:21 --> 01:08:25 Well, that's true. I mean, I guess. Yeah. She. But she was drawn here. No.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:28 As long as we're bending the rules, you know. True.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:32 I did not. She was animated here.
01:08:32 --> 01:08:35 Yes. And voiced by America. By.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:35 Yes.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:51 Yeah. Okay. I follow you. That's a great point. Salient point. Yeah. She was a strong leader. Humble in her. In her realization of her own strength. I like that. Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think she could.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:54 She'd be having very different style than Winnie the Pooh.
01:08:54 --> 01:09:12 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Winnie the pooh would be very humble. He makes sure that Piglet didn't get left behind, taking care of everyone that needs help and kind of lifting our. Lifting our hearts. And every now and then you just gotta say, oh, bother.
01:09:12 --> 01:09:46 Right. All right. So that was. I mean, that was a. That was a fun debate. Although I think we agreed on more than we didn't. And I turned the table. But no. So that. So thank you. Thank you so much for stopping by again to talk about DC and the president, presidents and Disney. And, of course, we talked a lot about your book. And I would love it for you to tell everyone where we could find you, find your book, find your photography, all of it. So let us know. Yeah.
01:09:46 --> 01:11:42 Perfect. Yeah. Best way is on the web. Jamieheckerrider.com I have, as I alluded to, this is my Walt goes to. Walt goes to Washington. And you mentioned it earlier that we talked about the Disney Legends book, volume one. Here's a hint. Volume two is going to be coming out sometime because I have enough material. I just have to sit down at my laptop and roll it all up. So jamieheckerwriter.com will have links to Amazon and reviews and my various podcasts that I've been on, including one in which we discussed my Legends book. You can also, I do photography, both Disney and non Disney. Kmffhotography.com. keep moving forward. That's. That's my motto. It's not my original one. It's waltz, but it's my, it's what kind of keeps me going each day. Kmffhotography.com. and I recently dipped my toes into the waters of Etsy trying to sell some of my images on canvas prints. So it is etsy.com shop kmffhotos. All right. And I have links to that, I think, on my photography website. Awesome. So there, there we have a pre election chat, and everyone do your civic duty. If you're over 18 and registered, it's not too late to register. Maybe you have a constitutional, dare I say, obligation, to participate in democracy and cast your vote with your conscience, with your heart, but cast your vote. This is the american spirit, the american dream.
01:11:42 --> 01:11:53 Thanks so much for mentioning that, because that is the underlying message here with this. We've had all these presidents we talked about, and the vote is the thing that makes that happen.
01:11:53 --> 01:12:24 We get out there, it's obviously the presidential cycle is getting all the oxygen sucked out of the room. But there are local races that will shape and affect your local community. Congressional candidates every two years are up for re election senators. And so be a part of the process. Don't complain from the sidelines. You have a role to play. We all have a role to play.
01:12:24 --> 01:14:11 So thanks again so much for dropping by. I love when we get to chat. This was great. And for those of you listening, of course, go back and listen to the last episode I did with Jamie, which was the Disney Legends episode and kind of like what makes a Disney legend. And if you want to know about new upcoming episodes, make sure you're not going to miss them. You make sure you subscribe or follow Synergy loves Company right now, wherever you're listening to this or watching this, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, wherever. Just click subscribe, follow, and you'll know it when a new episode drops. And I love it when I get to connect with guests on the show. I also love it when I connect with the listeners. So why don't you reach out and follow me on Facebook, Instagram or threads, all those places I'm at? Synergy loves company. Go look up Jamie while you're there to give him a follow. If you love telling people about why you love this show by posting on social media, don't stop there. You can share this show with a friend of yours. Tell them that you know they would enjoy Synergy Love's company. Tell them about this episode. Tell them about that Disney Legends episode. Send them a link on social media. Tag me in it. Tag Jamie in it. We'll say hi. We'll say thanks for listening. And remember, this show is listener supported. There's no sponsors. It's just us. Just us making the show here. So if you feel like you get something out of the podcast and you want to show your appreciation, you can support the show on Ko fi, can give any amount you would like, and it helps me keep producing the show. So no matter how you decide to support the show, I really appreciate the time you spent with us today. So thank you and thanks for exploring Disney's connections with us. And until next time, keep discovering the magic in everything.